Sunday Group Week 2: January 12, 1997, 6 p.m. EST Join us next week for another stimulating discussion on Asian-American current affairs! Check the Sunday Group web page for latest information: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~caase/sunday.html 1. Disney's China Diplomacy 2. Asian Nationals and Asian American Politics: Working at Cross-Purposes? Present: Ramamoorthi Bhaskar, Andrew Chin, Peter Hong, Arthur Hu, Lui Sieh Moderator: Peter Hong Editor: Andrew Chin Transcript ---------- Peter: Andrew, why don't you go ahead and start by saying what you thought about the opinion piece which appeared in the December 29th edition of the LA Times? Andrew: My main concern overarching all of these trade/culture issues is with the racial anorexia that American cultural exports cause in Third World countries. So in one sense, if Disney boycotts China, that's a plus for China's people. Bhaskar: I hear you Andrew. Lui: I think it's rather hypocritical for China to "interfere in US internal affairs"... Andrew: Remember Japan-bashing? It's been only 5 years, but it's easy to forget that it was a real phenomenon in 1992. I got a reminder the other night watching Van Halen's "Right Now" video on MTV. One of their annotations that flashed on the screen was: "Right now is not the fault of the Japanese." That will be a permanent artifact in mainstream culture that we can use to answer any future "Japan-bashing deniers" (cf. Holocaust deniers). Andrew: Anyway, I predict that 1997 will be a big year for China-bashing. This year, China will become cemented into the American consciousness as the new evil empire. The China-bashing that is forthcoming will probably be much more robust than the Japan-bashing was, because we won't have many people coming to the defense of China, what with their human rights record and the persistence of communism. We won't have many people defending Chinese Americans either, the way Japanese Americans were defended from Japan-bashing in 1992 by Americans who remembered the internment camps. Lui: I'm on the side of Disney...and the side of "free speech". Peter: Who's to say that Disney made their decision for free speech? Lui: No doubt, power was one of the issues that was considered. Peter: Yes, but then there is also the fact that Disney might not want to offend someone who is so clearly established in the entertainment industry. Lui: That's probably another issue they considered as well, but a cynical view would be that not offending China would have won over Scorsese due to the money. Lui: Is there any other way that Disney realistically could have gone with that? I can't see them kowtowing to the Chinese government. Peter: Not really. They were really between a rock and a hard place and decided to please people at home rather than overseas. Andrew: There is almost an Orwellian unanimity in the party line that businessmen in China use when talking to interviewers these days, "I'm just here to do business. I don't get involved in politics." Bhaskar: I think there are some interesting issues regarding authoritarianism. Peter: Bhaskar, please elaborate. Bhaskar: First, I think the US needs to recognize that there are several countries in Asia that have the potential to be both military and industrial superpowers. It's not just China, Japan and India, but also Korea, Indonesia and Malaysia. Not to mention Pakistan. Bhaskar: The US is fundamentally ambivalent, not necessarily in a sinister way, towards democracies in non-white countries. Lui: Well, that's a given...look at US foreign policies in Central America...China also...US Chinese foreign policy is hypocritical. Andrew: I think authoritarianism as it currently exists in Asia is more of a historical accident than a consequence of culture. Lui: In china, authoritarianism existed since the dawn of time, you could say. There is no other governmental model there. Peter: In a way Lui is correct. I don't think the English word "authoritarianism" really describes the system, since it has many other connections in the English sense... Peter: Part of the issue that was brought up in the article is that many in the US are willing to ignore "anti-democratic" practices as long as it means good business for US corporations. What are your thoughts on the ignoring of human rights and other issues when dealing with countries such as China which clearly present a vast market potential? Andrew: I think it's too bad the issue is being framed as Asian countries wanting to defend their authoritarianism rather than Asian countries wanting to defend their cultures from forces that they've astutely recognized are overpowering. Arthur: I think the Chinese in Beijing have just as much a right to complain about Western morals as Muslims, but whether or not they want to play ball is another matter. Peter: Is it that they have a right because of some moral justification or is it a symptom of the need to compete and make a stand for their country? Andrew: It's not that Disney is a model of freedom anyway. The whole premise behind the company is that all children should grow up with the same manufactured dreams. Andrew: I have to say, when I end up working for a big corporate law firm, all these transcripts are going to be pretty incriminating :) Lui: I was half-expecting to see some bulletin from the State Department requesting that China stop interfering with US internal affairs...that would've been a real laugher :-) Peter: Does all of this point to a rift between ideology of Asian Americans and Asians in Asia? Bhaskar: If we are concerned about Asian v. Asian-American issues, US non-interference in Asian democracies is a large issue. Lui: Peter's question only makes sense to me if one assumes that Asian and Asian American ideology should be the same. Peter: Lui, aha! That's what I'm trying to get at! Do you believe that such consensus should exist? Lui: I definitely definitely do not believe such consensus should exist. To say it should exist means that Asian Americans will never be legitimized as Americans in the US, and will always be marginalized on the basis of their presumed national origins. It will further perpetuate racism and discrimination against Asian americans. Peter: You see if we examine ourselves, we see that, well, at least I saw, that most of my ideology is clearly American. However, when I speak to my parent or their friends it seems like they come from another world and the truth is that they do. Lui: Yes...i see what you're saying. I agree. Peter: Personally, I think AAs are between a rock and a hard place because we are not looked on as first-rate citizens in the US and something other than Asian in Asia. Peter: I have been noticing AAs with dreams of bringing "Democracy" back to their countries, but then one must ask, is that really realistic? Andrew: What generation is everybody? I'm 4th-generation Chinese-American, and in 1989 I was dating a Chinese national who was a pro-democracy activist living in exile. So this is a rather poignant topic for me. At the time I felt that a Chinese American intellectual like myself could play a unique role in bringing democracy to China, but that was pretty naive, especially since I had no plans to learn Chinese, and at the time had very little political sophistication. The failure of that relationship and my failure to contribute to the democracy movement both sprang from the same root. Lui: I'm 2nd generation Chinese American. Dreams of bringing democracy...I've been guilty of that charge :-) Peter: I'm 1.5 in Korean, does that make sense? Bhaskar: I was born and grew up in South India and came to the US in 1973. Peter: Andrew, for virtually all of China's history there haven't been a system of democracy there. Do you think it's realistic for such change to occur even with the influx of western culture through capitalist practices? Andrew: I still favor the democracy movement in China, but I don't think it will proceed according to the Eastern European model, which is troubling. I think they'd most likely end up with something more like South America. Back in 1989 the democracy movement seemed so pure and noble to me, but now I see how easily it could be coopted by elites and transnationals. Arthur: Chinese democracy is a contradiction in terms. Chinese always seem to do best when white folks run things. Lui: I agree with the first statement. Andrew: But the second statement is quite provocative, Arthur. Do you think it applies to Chinese Americans too? Peter: Fishing for flames again, Arthur? :p Arthur: In a free market for ideas, everybody is entitled to be offended by anything, no matter how stupid. Peter: I thought the struggle between American idealism as personified by Disney's decision to go with freedom of speech was in a weird way parallel to struggles Asian Americans must go through with our "home" cultures. Bhaskar: As we speak, the bulk of involvement among Indian Americans is that of rightwing Hindus who I feel are financing a campaign against Muslims in India. So much for democracy dreams. Arthur: Some Chinese are getting the knack of democracy, like Gary Locke. The white folks out here treat him as one of the guys. He just did a brief bit in "Almost Live" where the host was going to help him move. Andrew: Isn't Locke half-white? Arthur: Nope, Locke is completely [ethnic] Chinese. Looks like me too. Got a terrific looking TV newscaster wife. I hear she's the distant descendant of Sun Yat Sen. Peter: The funny thing is, we AAs walk around "America" with ideas of bringing "democracy" to Asia when people who actually live there might not even care. Arthur: Tell me one place where the Chinese have a democracy the Americans would approve of. They don't even like Singapore (I guess they like the anarchy of NYC better). Peter: Arthur, calling Singapore democratic is like calling hambugers gourmet food. Arthur: At least Singapore doesn't call themselves a "People's Republic." If the US were run by right-wing Christians (and some parts ARE), it wouldn't be so different. And it might be an improvement. Andrew: It would be different for dissidents; but maybe that's a small sacrifice for harmony and prosperity. Peter: Arthur, I can't believe it, you actually said something I agree with, hahah! Lui: I think some of us AAs are motivated because we care about our parent's roots and heritage and we can't help but adopt some of their views and ask how we can help. Andrew: Democracy is a luxury. It's pretty high up in the Maslow hierarchy. Using the lack of democracy in another country as an excuse to discriminate against them in allocating more basic goods is illegitimate. Lui: This "help" mentality is very American actually: the American belief that they are out to "save" the "heathens" of the world. Peter: Lui, good point! We see how American we really are! Andrew: It's really hard for me to know what my commonalities and differences are with respect to typical Asian nationals, since all those I meet in the university setting are elites. Andrew: Well, another issue I always like to raise is the fact that Japanese nationals in Japan are really screwing Asian-Americans royally. They control many of the studios in Hollywood that are pumping out stereotypical trash, and their society still gives credence to the claims that Asian men are more sexist and Asian women are more submissive. Peter: Andrew, as someone who is working for the entertainment industry I don't think it's really the Japanese fault that thigs are the way they are in the entertainment industry. As a matter of fact, the Japanese multi nationals have also been "screwed" by other entertainment insides into squandering their money on ravish American productions that didn't go anywhere. :) Arthur: I think a big problem with new movies compared to some of the old ones is that people are so afraid of PC issues, there were more Asians in movies back then than now. Flower Drum Song would be (and still is being) crucified for not fitting into the Asian Activist mold. Same with All American Girl. The Asians were the only ones actively attacking it, it was worse than white folks just ignoring it. Andrew: I think as an empirical claim that's just wrong. Yellowface for all Asian characters with speaking roles was routine in the old days; it's much less common now. Arthur: The only people worried about Asian stereotypes are angry Asian college-educated activists, they are not issues the Japanese are worried about, and in any case, they don't know enough about making movies to have any intelligent input into US studios anyway. Seen any Japanese movies lately? Other than Anime and Tampopo and Totoro, Americans hate Japanese films. Arthur: At least yellowface had characters that were supposed to be Asian. It's not uncommon today to have black characters play Indians. Joan Chen played a Native American, as long as the overall film is OK, I woudln't completely rule out incorrect racial casting, it's just another minus. Andrew: I didn't raise the topic of yellowface in order to condemn it (although, as a separate matter, I do condemn it); I mentioned it to contradict the empirical claim you made about the willingness of Hollywood to cast Asian actors. Arthur: The Japanese don't worry about race the way Americans do. Remember, these guys still thought they were superior to the West, and even today still have some claim to that idea depending on what you want to look at. Peter: I don't think it's an issue of thinking they are better or worse, they're just not as intimidated, that's all. :) Arthur: Remember that the Jews have an astonishing amount of power and influence for just 2% of the population, Asians passed that milestone somtime in the 70s, and Asians, at least in science and math rival the abilities, as a group, of the Jews. But Asians aren't as strong in the written and nontechnical areas as the Jews, so aren't as strong in law and the arts (like Hollywood), though it seems if Asians worked as hard there as they did in math, we might give those guys a run for their money. Andrew: Jews can pass as white...that's a big structural advantage they'll always have over us. Arthur: Jews can pass as white, but next to the Gypsies, no white ethnic group arouses more hatred and resentment. Actually the Indians are a bigger threat since their english scores are just as good as their math scores. I'd watch out for those guys (any Indians invited?) Andrew: Bhaskar was here earlier. Andrew: Also, all that money from Indonesia that ended up having negative value for the Democratic Party could have been put to great use advocating Asian American causes. But Asian nationals have such a blind spot even to our existence. Peter: Andrew, you bring up an interesting point and I think you and I are on a similar track of thought on that issue. Lui: That Indonesian money could have helped, but is it right to have an expectation that it should help AA issues? Peter: Okay, everyone, your opinions on why the existence of AAs is not of the greatest interest to Asian nationals. Lui: I don't see why foreigners would want to care about a small group of Americans who have only a token of commonality (if any). Andrew: Actually in American history, we do have the experience of Asian nationals actually influencing American policy toward Asian-Americans, at a time when our numbers were much fewer. Namely, the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act in the days before WWII. Lui: Granted, you're right about that, but it makes more sense to me to think that there isn't a reason for them to act on "our" behalf since many of us aren't even ethnically the same as in the case of Indonesia (no one here is Indonesian). Also, those were different times and circumstances...are they parallel to today's situation? I'm not sure about that. Andrew: But Asian Americans were intimately involved in the Indonesian transactions--there was some social linkage. Peter: Lui, then are you condemning AAs to a life of obscurity? Personally, I tend to look at it as a market size and usability issue...besides, they're more interested in doing things to earn money and to simply "win". Lui: People give money to help themselves....I think that AAs will rise from obscurity if individual AAs continue to work with their communities and become involved with all facets of public life. Peter: But then again, in this day and age of racial politics, are you not just becoming a pawn in someone elses power game just by "working with their communities"? Lui: "Their communities"? I wouldn't think of it that way...it's just as much my community because of my presence and I can choose to be invisible or to be visible within multiple communities.... Andrew: I think there's enough work to be done everywhere, both within and without communities, and even in Asia. The main point is for each of us to find his or her comparative advantage. For example, I'm monolingual, so working with recent immigrants is out for me. Lui: That's a good point. There are many ways to skin a cat. And if the individual cares enough, that person will find a way to make a difference in society in her unique way. Peter: Andrew, the language barrier is more than mere sounds. It encompasses a range of thought patterns and process... Differences again. Andrew: So I think the right way to organize Asian American leadership is each according to his or her talents, rather than necessarily each according to his or her interests/perceptions of the problem. It's unfortunate that I have to be so pragmatic, but the problem is so large and there are so few of us engaging it. Lui: There's nothing wrong with pragmatism...that's the most effective way for leadership...and that's the problem I had with so many posters to soc.culture.asian.american in the past...they fail to understand the pragmatic side of activism. Peter: Okay, I think today's discussion has proven that the question of Asian Americans is more complicated than a few statements. Peter: Okay, as your mediator today I would like to formally close the discussion for today. Thanks Andrew for having to sort out this hodgepodge of material which came out today. :) Andrew: Let's have everyone's predictions. Peter: I predict that we'll have many more discussions on a variety of subject which ultimately lead to more subjects. :) Andrew: My prediction is that the new "Charlie Chan" movie will go straight to video, if it gets made at all. Arthur: The Asian PC police will continue to make sure that any portrayal of Asian Americans not approved by Frank Chin will be boycotted and fail. Lui: It'll take another 50-100 years before AAs will be as "natural" to American social landscape as apple pie. Andrew: Looks like my prediction is a special case of Arthur's :) Peter: Okay everyone, thanks for coming. I'm sorry my style of mediation tends to let discussion evolve into all directions over time. I may not make the best mediator but I make killer donburi! [Oliver Wang will mediate next week.]